If you have opinions on this Article, please air them on the B12 Message Board.

For further information about B12 on a raw food diet, see also the article "B12 on a raw food diet"

ClICK HERE FOR AN UPDATE TO THIS ARTICLE, FROM OCTOBER 2002

Had you asked me 3 years ago, I would have suggested that B12 problems with a vegan (high raw food) dietary was due to poor food choices and/or a conspiracy put about by animal eaters. Now, having had experience with the effects of low B12, I offer these comments. I do so in the hope that the attitude of many people and groups who wish to see the Vegan way remain 'untarnished', may find a new and exciting outlet for a real advancement of the Vegan diet and subsequently improved attitudes in the wider community, to our fellow creatures.

There is I believe a large body of subjective information which if it were to be thoughtfully published, may relieve a lot of anxiety and misconceptions which have surrounded this topic for many years.

The purpose of this article is to commence a catalogue of personal experiences, so that people have access to real stories and not just a scientific kit bag of research data and second hand experiences, possibly losing the means of usefully identifying causes in the re-telling.

Current medical advice suggests NO upper limit, potentially a B12 level of well over a 1000 pg/ml blood if B12 injections are utilised. Some sports related professionals may well have extended this also, as B12 is sometimes given by injection to athletes.

From vegan literature, a suggested minimum of some 100-120 pg/ml blood for B12 appears for many long-term vegans to be satisfactory in tested subjects for subjective acceptability of health status.

My experience of two separate incidences about 12 months apart, with low B12 symptoms and low B12 measurements, is briefly explained below.

First Experience
In 1999, I had been predominately raw food (90% plus) for around 6 years and a practising vegan for some 9 years. After 2-3 months with intense periods of stress, (my hair turned grey also!), I had my B12 blood levels checked for the first time. A single test revealed a sample of 56 pg/ml with high follate levels. Not wishing to administer either supplements or injections, I decided to re-aliment with a change in diet. Large quantities of parsley, some mushrooms and green leaf were consumed at usual mealtime between 5.30pm and 7pm. In addition I left the high raw food regime and reduced to about 70-80% for a week or two. Eating some tempeh, steamed vegetables and a daily intake of about 300 ml of soyoghurt. I also sought out seaweed. A few meals included baked potatoes. My expectation that my B12 levels would be restored in this way was never in doubt. The selected re-alimentation procedure was based on:

* Soyoghurt to re-establish intestinal flora particularly, including acidopholous bacillus present and listed on container.

* Pineapple one lunchtime for a high acid content. A few days later, paw-paw (papaya) at lunch for high alkaline content. All other lunch meals and afternoon grazing on fruit as usual.

* Tempeh made locally in my village, is untested for B12 content. The care and dedication of the manufacturer to make a product specifically for vegans though, and his experience with tempeh manufacture, including in Indonesia, with access to B12 data around the world, suggested to me there would be some B12 present.

* Greens, lightly washed, many from home garden. A lot of references in vegan/B12 literature indicate minute organisms and bacteria settle on garden leaf. These included parsley, spinach, green outer lettuce leaves, kale and Chinese leaf, pakchoy and bokchoy.

* Emotional assistance from a higher percentage of cooked foods, during wintertime. As I was still not 100% rawfoods, I thought this was a good opportunity to 'give myself some love'. I was/had been under duress and I wanted to reduce as much as possible any potential source of mental pressure. I felt that I may have been trying too hard to be a 'rawfooder. I knew I still would enjoy some foods which I had forbidden myself, even though feeling an attachment to them if others were eating in my presence. (Read baked potatoes, yummy soyoghurt and tempting tamari tempeh!).

* Seaweed, some diced raw weed and some roasted nori sheets. From published data seaweed contains measurable amounts of B12 in many tests. Mushrooms similarly, regularly show traces of B12.

*Complete rest as best I could with help from a few wonderful friends.

*Time for the external source of my initial stress to dissipate.

Three weeks later, I had another B12 blood test. This confirmed my subjective feelings, I was getting better. The single sample from the same laboratory showed a B12 level of 146 pg/ml. ( Compared to 56 pg/ml previously.) I felt more positive in myself, I was actively helping myself to heal, periods of dizziness and mental confusion and poor decision making were lessened and overall I was reconnected with the power of my own judgement and self control. The timing of this first experience was between August and early September 1999.

Transitional Period

I continued the altered regime for the 3 week period, with an increasing amount of rawfoods after the first week, regular seaweed and fresh herbs every day, leading to a similar 90% plus raw food intake with occasional baked potato binges until March 2000, when I commenced 100% raw foods. I have since felt perfectly happy with this final transition, with no lingering attachment or desire for any other foods, whether previously ' self-forbidden ' or not.

Typical meals

My basic eating regime is largely unchanged with first food at 11am or later consisting of seasonal/purchased fruit, such as orange, apple, banana icecream, mangoes, durian, persimmon, blueberries, stone fruit or my own nectarines, papaya or whatever else is the 'food of the week' from my shopping spree. Avacado or occasionally some nuts /seeds whole soaked or milked add some 'bulk' to satisfy. Grazing usually to some extent in afternoon depending on activity, time of year etc. with fruits in season and a salad for dinner at 5.30pm-7pm dependant on time of year, extent of hunger etc. Evening salad is a combination meal, with a green sludge herb sauce, or lemon/orange/oil dressing with garlic possibly. Tomato, cucumber, greenest leaf and fresh herbs form the daily basis to which is added avacado, celery, a small amount of grated carrot and/ beetroot, daikon, mushrooms, etc. and anything else raw around the kitchen or garden at the time of preparation. Often this is supplemented by a few pieces of fruit a little afterwards, or a rawfood ball, (dried fruit and nuts/seeds blended with a small piece of banana or apple for moisture and combining.)

Second Experience
The second adventure with B12 commenced about 4 months after my adopting the 100% rawfood regime:

In June I noticed upon waking that my toes and fingers appeared to have poor circulation. As this was onset of winter, temperatures frequently would be less than 3 degrees C overnight, and often down to -2/-3 degrees C, leading to cold extremities in any case. I did not immediately connect this symptom. I also noticed some dizziness when standing up quickly - again an experience not unknown to me in recent years. This usually happened when energy levels were low, during and after a fast, at other times if I had lost weight quickly or was less fit. Also at times on 100% fruit regime for months at a time I attributed this spaciness to 'not being grounded'. - The spiritual effects of a fruitarian food intake!

Anyway, a few weeks later, my left thumb began to feel numb, which feeling progressed over the next 6-8 weeks with the numbness spreading to my left forefinger and up the web of my left hand. I suspected that this may be B12 related, but I was unsure and so I waited to see if this was some other natural action my body was causing.

Consequently by mid-August, after about 10-12 weeks of the symptoms of numbness, with me having travelled North to a warmer climate and still finding my other fingers also tingling and getting a sense of numbness, the low B12 question was almost constantly on my mind.

I was disappointed that perhaps a 100% rawfood regime seemed questionable for me and scanned literature and the Internet to clarify other peoples experiences and advice.

I found nothing to support a rawfood vegan diet in terms of naturally occurring KNOWN raw sources of B12, only references to debatable cobalimin analogues, little scientific help and even less subjective details. How had I arrived here after so many years thinking I was improving my health and ending up with a sure B12 deficiency symptom and no natural solution for a 100% raw fooder. I felt alone all of a sudden. My first experience last year had been re-alimenting using some processed foods, what to do next?

I decided on a B12 test. I waited 2 days for the results and thought long and hard about the consequences of prolonging my present status and finding some quick way of resolving my predicament. When the results came back, the value was less than 45mcg/l B12 in my blood and therefore not recordable.

After a telephone call to the clinic I was told that the instruments lower limit could not measure below that figure and that this was a very low level in their view. This was of course confirmed by the doctor and nurse when I received the sample results.

I had 3 choices:

a. to re-aliment as I had done previously
b. take B12 supplements
c. have B12 injections(s)

This was really a landmark. I knew that I had previously been capable of assimilating B12 form my first experience a year earlier. I have a legacy of wanting to believe in the 'Power of Nature', somehow a natural solution should still be possible, but everywhere I searched, I could only find negative information about 100% raw food vegan diet and a low B12 status. I had been reading the literature about the non reversibility of neurological effects from B12 deficiency and a quick solution seemed important. My natural hygiene and nature cure adherence had not prepared me for this event. I talked to a number of vegans who had been taking B12 pill supplements and read about the expected absorption rates and times to build my level up. This could have been months possibly although I tended to think it would be sooner. I then considered the concept of having injections. I talked to people who had an injection and found the mental relief offered by a very quick potential fix to be quite appealing. The thought of knowing a solution lay readily at hand was comforting but how could I relate to it? I realized also what an opportunity I had. I considered it unlikely that I would ever again get into this predicament and I wanted to make the most of it. I therefore decided that this was the ideal time to see the effect of B12 injections. This realisation was comforting, as I had been many weeks considering the potential effects on my health and a quick, safe positive solution, one which I was initially trying to avoid, suddenly appeared completely plausible, sensible and exciting at the same time. Thus I opted for an injection. I felt exhilarated afterwards, with the thought of permanent damage largely dispelled and the long drawn out saga now at completion. I could get on with the business of life again. Three injections are recommended over about a 4 week period.

I was satisfied with the results of the first. It took about 10 days for a semblance of normal feeling to return and some 3 weeks for most of the symptoms to dissipate. I then decided it would be a useful thing to do further research into B12 and investigated various schools where this could take place. So far I have not bothered as other events have overtaken me, but I still think that I will get involved with B12 research in some way in the future. I had a second injection some 2 months after the first, and the last one still sits in it's little packet in the drawer becoming outdated. I did not have another blood test to see and record my B12 level as this is really of no consequence to me, but would perhaps of been useful to others to complete my investigations. Suffice to say I feel fine and as far as I can tell there is no permanent scar as a result of my experience. It is now July 2001.

I offer this story in the hope that by recording my thoughts and actions over this issue, others may in some way benefit from my experience and normalise their own health matters as a result. Anyone wondering about the B12 conspiracy theories may also better judge for themselves what opinions to form if similar real experiences end up documented as well.

I would like to finish this article by noting a few comments which I found interesting during my own search:

· A friend re-alimented from about 180 to around 600 pg/ml B12 just by eating more roughly washed carrots from her own garden. · I know of 5 other 'vegans' who recently have also had low B12 readings, enough for each of them to have either taken supplements or in a couple of instances to have injections. Symptoms generally have been tingling/ neurological/numbness. None of them are on high raw food intake. · Apparently the coincidence of a fall in all B vitamins is consistent with body/mental stress, so B12 is just one of the group. The significance in my view of this fact is that vegans with lower maintained levels of B12 are probably less likely to be able to maintain a 'buffer' in the instance of a high imposed stressful situation, once the point of depletion is reached. This is only circumstantial reasoning on my behalf, however I think a reasonable postulate. · A long term vegan (over 30 years and a lifelong vegetarian), with access to organic foods and fresh produce, mostly raw food (not 100%) suffered from B12 deficiency symptoms and has since been told by medical staff that he will need to have injections as he is no longer capable of assimilating B12. · Tests for B12 in (read ON) foods have generally not been documented substantially. Of course cobalt traces need to be available to form cobalamin and hardly any food references to cobalt exist in literature I have viewed. Some processed foods such as fortified soymilk, cereals, marmite and some yeast varieties show B12, however, the most consistent recorded levels which I have found in raw food seem to be in Seaweed. Some references mention occasional traces on leaf matter and mushrooms, which presumably is also variable depending on soil, grazing of animals/bird life, insects and potential bacterial growth. Commercially raised B12 is grown on molasses. · Some pragmatic nature cure and natural hygienists openly state that they have had many experiences with individuals who have come to them with health problems, when trying to maintain a 100% rawfood vegan regime. · We are individuals. Some people presumably are able to maintain a raw food vegan dietary without any problems. Food sources, washing methods, soil types and history of manures, fermented food stuffs and various degrees of resilience and natural diversity amongst peoples is yet to be investigated in adequate detail to be able to identify more rigorously the effects these have on our ability to keep healthy.

· A good source of B12 is from seaweeds. My body/mind just ate up lots of seaweed when I felt that I was possibly low in B12 and I do have a degree of faith in the ability to judge from this fact. I have been purchasing Dulse from Canada, (look on Internet for sources). The B12 levels have been tested and appear repeatable in various batches, so this is as good as any Known raw food source in my opinion. It may be that the residue of B12 is bacteria or even minute sea creatures. If as a vegan you are concerned, it can be further washed to reduce clinging contaminants and the possibly high salt content also reduced. The choice is always ours.

If the B12 bacterium seeks to grow on selected foods which are now becoming washed commercially before we have access to them, and we are not growing our own, then a known source of B12 may still elude us. Apart from supplements and injections that is. Probably as a vegan I am ultimately happy to make the sacrifice of these methods to maintain a non-violent outlook, but my preference is still to seek another way.

Anyway, happy hunting, eating and alimenting to you all. I would be pleased to answer any enquiries and may be contacted via this site or at zalan@rawfoods.com .. also for further info regarding B12 on a raw diet, you can read the article - "B12 on a raw food diet"

MY B12 UPDATE By Zalan Glen OCTOBER 2002

It is good to use the internet to get a diverse range of opinions, certainly for B12 this is probably all you will get, very few people seem to agree, even less have any personal history with their own search for B12 truth, therefore my reason for writing the featured article.

"Where do you get your B12 from, and how do you know?"
Perhaps a pertinent question to ask any Rawfooder, and Vegan, and especially a Rawfood Vegan. I would suggest most people guess, some take supplements anyway and assume this is their source. Basically "if it ain't wrong, don't try and fix it" has been a philosophy which I have generally followed. So entrenched in that particular philosophy, which Natural Hygiene promotes, I did not ever bother to undertake any B12 tests, or indeed any other diagnostics, nor did I take supplements of any kind. Thus to my surprise, after many years a vegan and after following a "Healthy Way" based on hygiene with a very high rawfood %, the long term caution which has plagued Vegans for many years finally came to my direct attention. I had discussed B12 with numerous people; most vegans will have stories to tell, either their own, or some one they know personally who has been diagnosed with 'low B12.' This of course does not necessarily mean, in all cases, that these people actually have symptoms of B12 deficiency. Often a low numerical value is used to suggest this, without the value being related to the Vegan Sub-group, and possibly without symptoms. Current accepted levels this year, 2002, in Australia; less than 180 ng/l is low, whilst 180 -220 ng/l is indeterminate, a telltale for future checks.

So where does this lead? Well frankly nowhere and everywhere. A personal history may or may not be seen to be useful or desirable. WHY B12? Why not check progress of 1001 other diagnostic values, which I might be personally interested in? Energy levels for instance, or tooth caries or cholesterol or WHATEVER. Well, the distinguishing factor with health is always--"HOW DO I FEEL?" If I believe there are symptoms, which are effecting my health and performance, then I start to narrow down the implications, just as Natural Hygiene suggests - "Health care IS Self care." If I am stuck in the external environment, then I take EXTRA care of my bodies' internal environment and maximise my health in those areas I have the greatest influence and knowledge about. If I suspect a problem with B12 symptoms however, unless I have a personal background value and traceable record of B12 variations, then any assumption about the source and effect of B12 is unverifiable.

The main article here (above), was written over 12 months ago. Since then I have further tests, not because I experienced symptoms, but as a check for science, and I also wanted to know. Tested serum level in mid March 2002 was 135 ng/l. Recently, I had another check, on 24 Sep 2002, when serum level measured 193 ng/l. Although different testing laboratories, the numerical variation I believe is enough to suggest my levels have actually risen, by exactly how much I don't predict, but they are UP. Macrocyte size was 'Normal' and 'Antiparietal Cell Antibody' was negative. That is platelets appear normal, and I have functioning Intrinsic Factor, both 'diagnostically' and practically. I feel good and I HAVE NO LINGERING SUSPICION THAT THERE MAY BE A PROBLEM WITH THE RAW FOOD DIET I AM FOLLOWING. THUS I AM HAPPY AND I KNOW THAT MY B12 IS OK, both symptomatically and numerically. So I am ONE HAPPY PERSON.

I also believe I am probably one of the few sources of this type of actual experiential information in this regard. Many people can read books and papers and quote Shelton and other Luminaries, however, when one experiences the symptoms attributed to B12 deficiency, if it is low B12, whether a crappy gut or not-is not really relevant. But the methods of FIXING symptoms which all point to low B12, whether by supplements, which do work, by injections, which do work or by food re-alimentation which I have also done and know works, - these are all up to the individual. I have been regularly eating a handful of Roland's Sea Vegetables 'DULSE" from Grand Manaan Island Canada. I import this at great expense and consider the seaweed to be a food, not a supplement. I attribute at least some of my rising B12 levels to this dietary modification.

So my advice is-DONT GO THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE. FIND A READY SOURCE OF KNOWN B12 AND USE IT. If this is produced by you without outside intervention, well FINE go for it. However, if any doubts arise, the only way to FIND OUT is to test- whether serum or urine for background levels and then repeat at some future time. To me this is VERY SENSIBLE. Research information, which is upgrading some of the old hygiene anecdotes (not principles) is ever more available and so parts of hygiene 'folklore' are being exposed as just that. Foods with washing, storage, supermarket presentation, changing soil conditions and hydroponics and who knows what else?? are altering the Capacity for Human Health on a daily basis now. I don't take this current change lightly. The move to Rawfoods I believe is an essential Health Imperative on behalf of Governments for all citizens, not just us ' health specialists.' Best Wishes, In Health, Zalan